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	<title>Kommentare zu: The Tricky Business of “Copylefting” Hardware</title>
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		<title>Von: Vinay Gupta</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-21285</link>
		<dc:creator>Vinay Gupta</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:00:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-21285</guid>
		<description>For what it&#039;s worth, Hexayurt Project (http://hexayurt.com) is an Free housing project of substantial scale (we had over 500 units built at Burning Man last year, for a total spend of about $250,000 from people building our design.)

We&#039;ve always gone public domain because none of the licensing models offered us any substantial protection. Even patent is, in our area (shelter) very unreliable because of the mass of unsearchable prior art from the 1960s shelter design explosion, and submarine patents.

Hope that&#039;s helpful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, Hexayurt Project (<a href="http://hexayurt.com" rel="nofollow">http://hexayurt.com</a>) is an Free housing project of substantial scale (we had over 500 units built at Burning Man last year, for a total spend of about $250,000 from people building our design.)</p>
<p>We&#8217;ve always gone public domain because none of the licensing models offered us any substantial protection. Even patent is, in our area (shelter) very unreliable because of the mass of unsearchable prior art from the 1960s shelter design explosion, and submarine patents.</p>
<p>Hope that&#8217;s helpful.</p>
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		<title>Von: Christian Siefkes</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-18164</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Siefkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 May 2010 15:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-18164</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Michel Bauwens has published an interesting series discussing obstacles to and controversies about open source hardware development:&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;ol&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-1-the-lack-of-open-source-culture-among-component-makers/2010/03/31&quot;&gt;The lack of open-source culture among component makers&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-2-ip-lack-of-adequate-open-licenses-patents/2010/04/01&quot;&gt;IP, lack of adequate open licenses, patents&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-3-the-makerbot-derivatives-controversy/2010/04/04&quot;&gt;The MakerBot derivatives controversy&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-4-the-public-patent-proposal/2010/04/16&quot;&gt;The public patent proposal&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;li&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-5-patents-are-not-the-issue-argues-sam-rose/2010/05/06&quot;&gt;Patents are NOT the issue, argues Sam Rose&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li&gt;
&lt;/ol&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michel Bauwens has published an interesting series discussing obstacles to and controversies about open source hardware development:</p>
<ol>
<li><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-1-the-lack-of-open-source-culture-among-component-makers/2010/03/31">The lack of open-source culture among component makers</a></li>
<li><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-2-ip-lack-of-adequate-open-licenses-patents/2010/04/01">IP, lack of adequate open licenses, patents</a></li>
<li><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-3-the-makerbot-derivatives-controversy/2010/04/04">The MakerBot derivatives controversy</a></li>
<li><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-4-the-public-patent-proposal/2010/04/16">The public patent proposal</a></li>
<li><a href="http://blog.p2pfoundation.net/obstacles-to-open-source-hardware-5-patents-are-not-the-issue-argues-sam-rose/2010/05/06">Patents are NOT the issue, argues Sam Rose</a></li>
</ol>
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		<title>Von: Joe Lotz</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17793</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Lotz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 19:17:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17793</guid>
		<description>Thanks for publishing your thoughts on this topic. I have been struggling with understanding how to approach this topic with my own designs/projects.

On one hand I have learned most of &quot;hacking&quot; from other projects, dissecting designs, implementing circuits, &quot;stealing&quot; modules and pieces - so I want to add to this body of knowledge. On the other hand, I don&#039;t want someone else (especially a big company) to get rich of my work when I still need to pay off my student loans.

This is definitely a grey area... Ladyada and others make an interesting argument for removing the Non-Commercial restriction from your license. http://www.ladyada.net/library/openhardware/license.html

Some other interesting readings

http://www.instructables.com/community/Open-source-Hardware-License---creative-commons-li/

http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2010/01/grand-unifying-theory-of-open-source.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for publishing your thoughts on this topic. I have been struggling with understanding how to approach this topic with my own designs/projects.</p>
<p>On one hand I have learned most of &#8220;hacking&#8221; from other projects, dissecting designs, implementing circuits, &#8220;stealing&#8221; modules and pieces &#8211; so I want to add to this body of knowledge. On the other hand, I don&#8217;t want someone else (especially a big company) to get rich of my work when I still need to pay off my student loans.</p>
<p>This is definitely a grey area&#8230; Ladyada and others make an interesting argument for removing the Non-Commercial restriction from your license. <a href="http://www.ladyada.net/library/openhardware/license.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ladyada.net/library/openhardware/license.html</a></p>
<p>Some other interesting readings</p>
<p><a href="http://www.instructables.com/community/Open-source-Hardware-License---creative-commons-li/" rel="nofollow">http://www.instructables.com/community/Open-source-Hardware-License&#8212;creative-commons-li/</a></p>
<p><a href="http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2010/01/grand-unifying-theory-of-open-source.html" rel="nofollow">http://antipastohw.blogspot.com/2010/01/grand-unifying-theory-of-open-source.html</a></p>
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		<title>Von: Thomas Kalka</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17749</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Kalka</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 12:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17749</guid>
		<description>A trademark could be used to support open hardware by giving consumers a choice. If some well known &quot;open hardware&quot; label would exist, people could choose to prefer bying this products.

But the definition of open hardware should be broadened.

Products which are &quot;hacker friendly&quot; (for example well supported with documentation, provided with real open source drivers, support of home brewed firmware etc)  but do not have an open design, should also get a (different) OH-logo attached to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A trademark could be used to support open hardware by giving consumers a choice. If some well known &#8220;open hardware&#8221; label would exist, people could choose to prefer bying this products.</p>
<p>But the definition of open hardware should be broadened.</p>
<p>Products which are &#8220;hacker friendly&#8221; (for example well supported with documentation, provided with real open source drivers, support of home brewed firmware etc)  but do not have an open design, should also get a (different) OH-logo attached to them.</p>
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		<title>Von: Christian Siefkes</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17551</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Siefkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jan 2010 21:03:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17551</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Kozuch: Well, we’ll see if the GOSH initiative (cf. Juergen’s comments) will achieve something. I also know that the c,mm,n car project tried to work out a license based on contract law (&lt;a class=&quot;reference external&quot; href=&quot;http://www.cmmn.org/wiki/index.php/The_c,mm,n_open_product_licence&quot;&gt;license draft&lt;/a&gt;), but their efforts seem to have got stuck…&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kozuch: Well, we’ll see if the GOSH initiative (cf. Juergen’s comments) will achieve something. I also know that the c,mm,n car project tried to work out a license based on contract law (<a class="reference external" href="http://www.cmmn.org/wiki/index.php/The_c,mm,n_open_product_licence">license draft</a>), but their efforts seem to have got stuck…</p>
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		<title>Von: Kozuch</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17524</link>
		<dc:creator>Kozuch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 08:02:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17524</guid>
		<description>I think there must be a way how to solve the problem. I can imagine there are thousands similar cases in business out there where lawyers are not supported by current laws and they have to deal with it - create special types of contracts and special ways of dealing with problems... finally, what they are doing is they are just playing with probabilities that certain things happen. If one thing happens more often than the other, they take a special care of that case and try to &quot;protect&quot; it better in their works. There must be a workaround here too.

What about including a notice in every file so that it is necessarily visible to the user of that file? I mean include it within the drawings themselves and a kind of &quot;footnote&quot;, not as a text in a binary file, but rather as a vector text within the drawing itself... I mean not in some &quot;hidden&quot; code comment but in an immediatelly visible way so that the &quot;user&quot; (developer, contrubutor, coincidental viewer) of the file just sees it and cant ignore it. Texturing the surface of a 3D model with such a notice would be another way. I think this could have at least some legal force, couldnt it?

Finally, we could end up using multiple ways of protection at the same time. Do usual licences (GPL etc. for copyrightable stuff), do a click-wrap thing, do notices in files in case someone omits the click-wrap, do trademark at the same time etc. I think mixing the most possible protections together could enhance the force of all these &quot;protections&quot; (I mean to protect some freedoms here of course, like GPL does for instance).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think there must be a way how to solve the problem. I can imagine there are thousands similar cases in business out there where lawyers are not supported by current laws and they have to deal with it &#8211; create special types of contracts and special ways of dealing with problems&#8230; finally, what they are doing is they are just playing with probabilities that certain things happen. If one thing happens more often than the other, they take a special care of that case and try to &#8220;protect&#8221; it better in their works. There must be a workaround here too.</p>
<p>What about including a notice in every file so that it is necessarily visible to the user of that file? I mean include it within the drawings themselves and a kind of &#8220;footnote&#8221;, not as a text in a binary file, but rather as a vector text within the drawing itself&#8230; I mean not in some &#8220;hidden&#8221; code comment but in an immediatelly visible way so that the &#8220;user&#8221; (developer, contrubutor, coincidental viewer) of the file just sees it and cant ignore it. Texturing the surface of a 3D model with such a notice would be another way. I think this could have at least some legal force, couldnt it?</p>
<p>Finally, we could end up using multiple ways of protection at the same time. Do usual licences (GPL etc. for copyrightable stuff), do a click-wrap thing, do notices in files in case someone omits the click-wrap, do trademark at the same time etc. I think mixing the most possible protections together could enhance the force of all these &#8220;protections&#8221; (I mean to protect some freedoms here of course, like GPL does for instance).</p>
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		<title>Von: Christian Siefkes</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17523</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Siefkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 01:19:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17523</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Kozuch: I mentioned in my comment to Juergen that a shrink-wrap (or click-wrap) license &lt;em&gt;might&lt;/em&gt; work, but I think it would be very difficult to get something that is internationally watertight. For example, in German law, click-wrap licenses which the user accepts when s/he installs the software (rather then when they bought it) are not valid at all, and even when the user accepts at buy, there are many things that &lt;em&gt;cannot&lt;/em&gt; be agreed on in a EULA at all (the respective clauses will be invalid and can be ignored – cf. &lt;a href=&quot;http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endbenutzer-Lizenzvertrag&quot;&gt;Endbenutzer-Lizenzvertrag&lt;/a&gt;). How does this translate to free hardware where there is no “buying” at all? And would it be possible to define a copyleft-like click-wrap agreement that was valid in German law? I don’t know…&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And that’s just &lt;em&gt;one&lt;/em&gt; jurisdiction—imagine the difficulties of writing an agreement that holds up in the major North American and European jurisdictions at least. Even the big companies with their huge legal divisions fail at that tasks (their EULAs are regularly invalid in some parts)…&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Another issue is the passing on of information—whoever spreads such “click-wrapped” free information, would have the burden of making the other party accept the click-wrap agreement as well. What if I spread the information ignoring this requirement? Clearly &lt;em&gt;I&lt;/em&gt; have violated the license terms, but what about the person I gave it too? They don’t have violated anything, but they have got the information and can probably use it in any way they like (without being bound by the license which they didn’t accept).&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Kozuch: I mentioned in my comment to Juergen that a shrink-wrap (or click-wrap) license <em>might</em> work, but I think it would be very difficult to get something that is internationally watertight. For example, in German law, click-wrap licenses which the user accepts when s/he installs the software (rather then when they bought it) are not valid at all, and even when the user accepts at buy, there are many things that <em>cannot</em> be agreed on in a EULA at all (the respective clauses will be invalid and can be ignored – cf. <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endbenutzer-Lizenzvertrag">Endbenutzer-Lizenzvertrag</a>). How does this translate to free hardware where there is no “buying” at all? And would it be possible to define a copyleft-like click-wrap agreement that was valid in German law? I don’t know…</p>
<p>And that’s just <em>one</em> jurisdiction—imagine the difficulties of writing an agreement that holds up in the major North American and European jurisdictions at least. Even the big companies with their huge legal divisions fail at that tasks (their EULAs are regularly invalid in some parts)…</p>
<p>Another issue is the passing on of information—whoever spreads such “click-wrapped” free information, would have the burden of making the other party accept the click-wrap agreement as well. What if I spread the information ignoring this requirement? Clearly <em>I</em> have violated the license terms, but what about the person I gave it too? They don’t have violated anything, but they have got the information and can probably use it in any way they like (without being bound by the license which they didn’t accept).</p>
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		<title>Von: Kozuch</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17516</link>
		<dc:creator>Kozuch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 21:14:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17516</guid>
		<description>An interesting reading here. I think a &quot;clickwrap&quot; license would do the job??? There is lot of talking about the licensing of open hardware projects, but isnt it actually a very trivial problem? If you want A, you have to accept B. As simple as EULA, which is legally binding, right?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting reading here. I think a &#8220;clickwrap&#8221; license would do the job??? There is lot of talking about the licensing of open hardware projects, but isnt it actually a very trivial problem? If you want A, you have to accept B. As simple as EULA, which is legally binding, right?</p>
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		<title>Von: Christian Siefkes</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17431</link>
		<dc:creator>Christian Siefkes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jan 2010 02:29:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17431</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;@Juergen:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think that of course we should add a passage addressing the re-user and obliging him/her to re-apply the trademark to any physical device deriving from the original source. We would bind that to the freedoms we are granting, I guess. In other words: I give you the 4 freedoms and it is my precondition (or: my strong wish?) that you re-apply the trademark to any device derinving from my work.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Is that a legal contract? I am not sure, but I am not a lawyer either and therefore I cannot say if there is a way to make that a bullet-proof legal agreement. We should try to find that out, though!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hm, that seems to boil down again to the same old problem: a legal obligation must be based on copyright or some other law, and copyright doesn&#039;t not apply to the user&#039;s behavior which you want to influence. I guess you could try to make it legally binding through some kind of &quot;shrink-wrap license&quot; instead (&quot;you are only allowed to download this, if you agree to the following conditions&quot;), but &quot;shrink-wrap licenses&quot; after problematic in various ways (e.g. they are probably ineffective in German law, and they would make free redistribution of the protected information difficult).&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In my belief we are talking about a field of products and markets which include a lot of ideological load. There are other questions which are at least as relevant as law itself. Having a quick look at Porter’s Five Forces helps to estimate their relevance, I think.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;If companies/manufacturers will use the trademark, they will do it not only due to ideological reasons. They will of course also do it, because they think it will add one or more advantages to their products and to their organisation and/or brand.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;True, maybe it&#039;s better to rely both on ethical pressure (this is what you SHOULD do) and practical motivations (&quot;I WANT to call my hardware &lt;insert trademark name&gt;&quot;) instead of legal obligations.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To move on with opening up the world, the trademark is at least a good next step which I would like to take until we may have found a better solution. I’d be happy to get your feedback and to learn more about what you think we should do next!&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Hm, I would think the obvious thing would be to try to resolve the open issues (such as: how it is meant to work exactly?) as good as possible and get the whole idea into a form where it can actually be used. Do you need help? Is there a public mailing list or similar where you coordinate your activities?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Juergen:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>I think that of course we should add a passage addressing the re-user and obliging him/her to re-apply the trademark to any physical device deriving from the original source. We would bind that to the freedoms we are granting, I guess. In other words: I give you the 4 freedoms and it is my precondition (or: my strong wish?) that you re-apply the trademark to any device derinving from my work.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>Is that a legal contract? I am not sure, but I am not a lawyer either and therefore I cannot say if there is a way to make that a bullet-proof legal agreement. We should try to find that out, though!</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Hm, that seems to boil down again to the same old problem: a legal obligation must be based on copyright or some other law, and copyright doesn&#8217;t not apply to the user&#8217;s behavior which you want to influence. I guess you could try to make it legally binding through some kind of &#8220;shrink-wrap license&#8221; instead (&#8220;you are only allowed to download this, if you agree to the following conditions&#8221;), but &#8220;shrink-wrap licenses&#8221; after problematic in various ways (e.g. they are probably ineffective in German law, and they would make free redistribution of the protected information difficult).</p>
<blockquote>
<p>In my belief we are talking about a field of products and markets which include a lot of ideological load. There are other questions which are at least as relevant as law itself. Having a quick look at Porter’s Five Forces helps to estimate their relevance, I think.</p>
</blockquote>
<blockquote>
<p>If companies/manufacturers will use the trademark, they will do it not only due to ideological reasons. They will of course also do it, because they think it will add one or more advantages to their products and to their organisation and/or brand.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>True, maybe it&#8217;s better to rely both on ethical pressure (this is what you SHOULD do) and practical motivations (&#8220;I WANT to call my hardware &lt;insert trademark name&gt;&#8221;) instead of legal obligations.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>To move on with opening up the world, the trademark is at least a good next step which I would like to take until we may have found a better solution. I’d be happy to get your feedback and to learn more about what you think we should do next!</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Hm, I would think the obvious thing would be to try to resolve the open issues (such as: how it is meant to work exactly?) as good as possible and get the whole idea into a form where it can actually be used. Do you need help? Is there a public mailing list or similar where you coordinate your activities?</p>
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		<title>Von: Copyleft für Hardware – ein kniffliges Problem &#8212; keimform.de</title>
		<link>http://keimform.de/2009/the-tricky-business-of-copylefting-hardware/#comment-17393</link>
		<dc:creator>Copyleft für Hardware – ein kniffliges Problem &#8212; keimform.de</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 01:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.keimform.de/?p=2483#comment-17393</guid>
		<description>[...] This article is also available in English. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] This article is also available in English. [...]</p>
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